Undo buffer - serious problems

stitlown · 16th January 2017, 08:56 AM

v7 had a great undo buffer. Almost unbreakable. Meant you could confidently plow ahead without needs for saves because you could almost always backtrack to where there was no problem.

v8 appears to have serious undo buffer problems. I'm spending time retrieving models from some other software and since buying v8 today, I've probably had 15 times when the undo buffer crunches to "nothing to undo" way-way before that is the case. Major operations seem to be the issue eg a vertex optimisation after a snap together by distance.

The specific incident that sent me here to report was <approx 300 operations> then snap together by distance 0.5, then optimise vertices then optimise surfaces. Could only undo optimise surfaces before hitting "nothing to undo".

For the avoidance of doubt ... successfully did a number of deep undos during that <approx 300 operations>.

If this is a genuine bug, I'd suggest fixing is a priority because this is a major workflow / productivity interrupter and one of those "sudden death / no warning" "lost all work, start again" issues, right up there with a mid-work crash.
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Cheers, Lx

BTW is there somewhere where you can set the undo buffer depth? I thought there was in v7 but could not find it tonight in v7 before I uninstalled and certainly have not yet found it in v8.

Andy · 16th January 2017, 10:35 AM

You can change it by editing the prefs file (ac3dprefs.txt on Windows). Without looking I think it's set to 20? It could probably be set higher by default, now that PCs tend to have a lot more memory. Note that a very large number will give you a lot more undos but also that memory will fill up faster (although it does depend on what you are doing).

stitlown · 16th January 2017, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy

You can change it by editing the prefs file (ac3dprefs.txt on Windows). Without looking I think it's set to 20? It could probably be set higher by default, now that PCs tend to have a lot more memory. Note that a very large number will give you a lot more undos but also that memory will fill up faster (although it does depend on what you are doing).

Thanks Andy. In the root directory for the USER and now called ac3dprefs8.txt it appears (will experiment with deleting the older ac3dprefs.txt. The field is Undo_levels2 and mine was set to 50 (which is what I thought I had in v7 my recollection). I've increased it to 200 pro-tem.

stitlown · 17th January 2017, 12:02 AM

Update on this undo problem. Maybe the problem is specifically the optimise surfaces. Just playing with a model where relatively few verticies are removed on an optimise (couple of thousand) and only 3 surfaces are removed on optimise surfaces, but still "nothing to undo" after undoing the surface optimisation.

Andy · 17th January 2017, 05:36 AM

Aha - a tiny number of functions can be so destructive that, although they can be undone, will also clear the undo buffer.

The optimize functions can cause the entire hierarchy to change( e.g. if an object has all bad surfaces removed, so is automatically deleted/cleaned-up).

So - AC3D is operating as designed but, there probably should be a warning before the optimize functions.

stitlown · 17th January 2017, 06:59 AM

Further update ... and I saw your "so destructive" post first ...

Had another different one this arvo. Snap-together-by-distance then optimize vertices. Had been doing it all afternoon as I try to find an optimal lower poly of several models. This one was bigger than usual and while I'd been able to undo many, this one could undo the optimise vertices but "nothing to undo" for the snap.

Andy, my push-back is pretty firm, v7 did not display this behaviour that I can recall.

My suspicion now runs to a memory allocation issue. I know you cannot "unbreak" a broken glass, but this is not real-world physics. With enough memory, either or both of a before image and every transaction from here to there should be storeable and an undo possible. We are only 32 bit but even that is 3.something gig of memory. I do hope you don't dismiss this as one of those IBM "design features".

But thanks for the quick response.

stitlown · 17th January 2017, 07:01 AM

BTW, despite this and other bug reports, I am seriously loving v8. Light-speed faster than v5-7 all of which I've used over the years. AC3D is now a real contender.

Andy · 17th January 2017, 07:46 AM

"destructive" was probably the wrong word to use

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I can't seem to duplicate the problem you are having. Snap-together-by-distance is undoable, as is optimize-vertices (but will clear the undo buffer).

If you found a problem, please let me know the full sequence of commands you used before seeing it.

stitlown · 17th January 2017, 08:13 AM

I'll try to elaborate tomorrow - bed time now. But can you elaborate on "but will clear the undo buffer". That I just do not "get". Cheers. Lx

Andy · 17th January 2017, 08:41 AM

The undo buffer stores the operations that just happened so they can be undone. The value that you altered in prefs determines the number of changes that can be undone - more operations than this, drop off the end and are deleted (to save memory). When you Undo, you move back through the buffer, restoring your recent changes. In AC3D, you can do a "redo" which re-performs the thing you just undid

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16th January 2017, 08:56 AM	#1
stitlown Member Expert member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Undo buffer - serious problems v7 had a great undo buffer. Almost unbreakable. Meant you could confidently plow ahead without needs for saves because you could almost always backtrack to where there was no problem. v8 appears to have serious undo buffer problems. I'm spending time retrieving models from some other software and since buying v8 today, I've probably had 15 times when the undo buffer crunches to "nothing to undo" way-way before that is the case. Major operations seem to be the issue eg a vertex optimisation after a snap together by distance. The specific incident that sent me here to report was <approx 300 operations> then snap together by distance 0.5, then optimise vertices then optimise surfaces. Could only undo optimise surfaces before hitting "nothing to undo". For the avoidance of doubt ... successfully did a number of deep undos during that <approx 300 operations>. If this is a genuine bug, I'd suggest fixing is a priority because this is a major workflow / productivity interrupter and one of those "sudden death / no warning" "lost all work, start again" issues, right up there with a mid-work crash. . Cheers, Lx BTW is there somewhere where you can set the undo buffer depth? I thought there was in v7 but could not find it tonight in v7 before I uninstalled and certainly have not yet found it in v8.

16th January 2017, 10:35 AM	#2
Andy Administrator Professional user Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,564	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems You can change it by editing the prefs file (ac3dprefs.txt on Windows). Without looking I think it's set to 20? It could probably be set higher by default, now that PCs tend to have a lot more memory. Note that a very large number will give you a lot more undos but also that memory will fill up faster (although it does depend on what you are doing).

17th January 2017, 12:02 AM	#4
stitlown Member Expert member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems Update on this undo problem. Maybe the problem is specifically the optimise surfaces. Just playing with a model where relatively few verticies are removed on an optimise (couple of thousand) and only 3 surfaces are removed on optimise surfaces, but still "nothing to undo" after undoing the surface optimisation.

17th January 2017, 05:36 AM	#5
Andy Administrator Professional user Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,564	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems Aha - a tiny number of functions can be so destructive that, although they can be undone, will also clear the undo buffer. The optimize functions can cause the entire hierarchy to change( e.g. if an object has all bad surfaces removed, so is automatically deleted/cleaned-up). So - AC3D is operating as designed but, there probably should be a warning before the optimize functions. Last edited by Andy; 17th January 2017 at 05:39 AM.

17th January 2017, 06:59 AM	#6
stitlown Member Expert member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems Further update ... and I saw your "so destructive" post first ... Had another different one this arvo. Snap-together-by-distance then optimize vertices. Had been doing it all afternoon as I try to find an optimal lower poly of several models. This one was bigger than usual and while I'd been able to undo many, this one could undo the optimise vertices but "nothing to undo" for the snap. Andy, my push-back is pretty firm, v7 did not display this behaviour that I can recall. My suspicion now runs to a memory allocation issue. I know you cannot "unbreak" a broken glass, but this is not real-world physics. With enough memory, either or both of a before image and every transaction from here to there should be storeable and an undo possible. We are only 32 bit but even that is 3.something gig of memory. I do hope you don't dismiss this as one of those IBM "design features". But thanks for the quick response.

17th January 2017, 07:01 AM	#7
stitlown Member Expert member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems BTW, despite this and other bug reports, I am seriously loving v8. Light-speed faster than v5-7 all of which I've used over the years. AC3D is now a real contender.

17th January 2017, 07:46 AM	#8
Andy Administrator Professional user Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,564	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems "destructive" was probably the wrong word to use . I can't seem to duplicate the problem you are having. Snap-together-by-distance is undoable, as is optimize-vertices (but will clear the undo buffer). If you found a problem, please let me know the full sequence of commands you used before seeing it.

17th January 2017, 08:13 AM	#9
stitlown Member Expert member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems I'll try to elaborate tomorrow - bed time now. But can you elaborate on "but will clear the undo buffer". That I just do not "get". Cheers. Lx

17th January 2017, 08:41 AM	#10
Andy Administrator Professional user Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,564	Re: Undo buffer - serious problems The undo buffer stores the operations that just happened so they can be undone. The value that you altered in prefs determines the number of changes that can be undone - more operations than this, drop off the end and are deleted (to save memory). When you Undo, you move back through the buffer, restoring your recent changes. In AC3D, you can do a "redo" which re-performs the thing you just undid .